Jerm- You have taken me to task for belittling Jostrosky, and rightly so. I apologize for my sarcasm. However, don't lose sight of my mesage. You say to "Joe" that theory may or may not even be involved. Any time you play theory is involved, just because you are not AWARE of that doesn't mean it's not involved. Did you read the last part of my post? I am genuinely concerned for both of you. I don't think that either of you will ever be able to play anything you are capable of playing. You might hit on some of your ideas by sheer random luck, but how do you expect to be able to play ANYTHING you hear at ANYTIME if you don't know what you are doing? If you always know what you are doing, it's consistent and repeatable. If not, you are only lucky to be able to do it once, and may never be able to do it again. I am only suggesting that you have all the tools at your disposal to be able to execute any idea you can think of, whenever you think of it. Is that such a horrible thing to suggest? The greatest composers, as well as the greatest improvisors, can execute any idea that comes to them, and can do it flawlessly. They can do it because they know how to. Ignorance is never defensible, why are you defending it now? I agree with you, music is about communication. How can you communicate eloquently and effectively without a thorough knowledge of the language? How can you create resonance on a deep and profound level without being able to speak coherently? Why wouldn't you want to know as much as you can about making music? I ask you to please address these
questions, as I really do have both of your best interests at heart. I am not trying to be arrogant here, and I apologize for the tone of my last posts. Can either of you explain to me why you think that ignorance is good?

First and foremost, from a mucisian whos principal job is to play music... I think that Onesun... you are an asshole. you have no right to say that to other people because you know music theory you think you are the all mighty god of music, you don't have to know any music theory to know how to play. I mean, being in the music Industry, the only bands anymore that really bother to learn music theory are crap bands that are too technical and don't experiment. you saying that you have to understand the language to communicate is B/S ok if you like examples so much, here is one to prove my point. when you got your license, did you go out to buy every book on the market to understand how a car works? no you didnt. you learned the basics, and the rest you taught yourself. There is really only so much you can learn about playing music and then the rest is useless. if everyone learned music theory, music would become repetative and boring! Once you learn music theory, you think about chords that typically can go together, and don't experiment. music is not made to be written, its made to be heard and the only thing anyone has to understand about music is how to hear it, as far as I'm concerned, to answer the original question, that music theory is good to know, but to say it is absolutley necessary, is bull shit. learn the basics, and if you can't improve on your own then don't play an instrument.

I can see both points and I think you are all talking about the same thing. How many times have you traveled to another country and didn't know the language? Did you sit in your hotel room and not go out? no...you learned a few words and phrases and probably had a great vacation. sure you didn't know what everything was but you can feel it the same way you can feel the music. The next time you go to that country, you may know a few more words...and each time it gets better and you understand more but each time it works...if you studied that language for 10 years and went, you'd have a great time too. It's just that some things work better for some people. No one is right here but everyone is right here too. I personally like the feel better then the technique though.

just my 2 cents

"Actual Musician".........(if that's your real name)........ I really don't mean to be disrepectful, but your entire post is one of the most ignorant diatribes I have ever read in my entire life. First off, I never said I was the almighty god of music. I am just expressing my opinion, and my opinion is that in order to play ANYTHING you can think of, at ANYTIME, the more you know, the better. How is this position wrong? It can't be wrong, it's in fact, UNASSAILABLE!!!! There is no way to support any argument to the contrary, except with ignorance and laziness. The more you know about ANYTHING, the better you'll be at it if it is a skill that involves knowledge. The fact of the matter is, you are a lazy musician, not an actual one. Because an actual one would never argue for ignorance and laziness as an approach to anything. You are right, I'm sure, about bands not learning music theory anymore. Most bands nowadays SUCK! They can't play their instruments and it sounds like it. The music most bands make sounds like they don't know much about music. The shitty state of music today accurately reflects the fact that lots of bands know nothing about music. As far as your assertion that knowing music theory means you won't experiment at all, that is just a convenient and absurd way to rationalize your ignorant and lazy approach to music. I am trying here to promote an intelligent approach to music, that is all. If that makes me an asshole, then so be it!

ONE SUN,
1. what makes you an asshole is the approach, not your cause.
2.you dont know me and are underestimating my talent.
Im not bragging here, just telling it as I see it. I CAN play anything I hear! And the only times I MIGHT use ANY theory is when deciding what note to start the next phrase / part / chorus / bridge on.
But as I have stated before, all of that can be unnesesary to those with a good ear (which I have been blessed with) Book knowledge will never replace god given talent!
You can study all the different types of art and the different styles and mediums, but it wont mean that you can draw!
So NO, I don't NEED theory to play WHATEVER. WHENEVER!
BUT! Theory is good and CAN be usefull when aplied in moderation. I would recomend knowledge to anyone, but how you use it is up to you! A piece could sound horrible and use secondal and 3rds and all that to seem technical. But it sounds like my kid brother bangin on the piano! Now I could play an entire song using only 2 base notes, but build a song with 10 parts in a 3 minute song and it still not be an overload of changes!
AND I DO THAT!
It is artistic CREATIVITY.
Theory helped, true. But i personally think it didnt do anything for me that wouldnt have happened naturally somewhere down the line.
Theory in and of itself can easily take away the spiritual fullfillment music can give.
Its like the scientist. Breaking down the structure of something and showing how "smart" they are, but what does it get you. Unimpressed with the world and never satisfied. So why not just take things at face value as what they are instead of what it is made up of and why it is made that way.
Any way, our govnt has started a war and is bombing a nation for its self rightous benifit. So lets move on.

OneSun, I'm sorry if you got the wrong message from what i posted, which leads me to believe more and more how stupid you really are. I didn't want to get across that Music Theory is useless... I'm sure that it can be good... my message was that its not as important as you make it sound. Also i would like to point out that attacking my level of play will take you nowhere, you never even heard my band play. I agree with one thing you said though, that mainstream music sucks these days, but I never once said I was a mainstream musician. You have to grow up and admit that maybe you don't need to know Music Theory to play an instrument. Also not learning music theory doesn't mean your lazy, it just means you learn better different ways. when i write or play music, with other people it all comes down to if it sounds good or not. If it is pleasing you work with it to make it sound amazing. When i finish my bands website, then i will have some of our songs on there for you to listen to and once you hear how we sound then you have permission to tear us up as badly as you want, but untill then, shut your mouth about what you don't know.

Just a few words on the study of music theory. I went back to school and completed my degree in music last year. This was one of my goals in life. This included endless study of music theory, sight singing, piano pedology and the like.

As an aspiring songwriter, I just felt I needed the additional tools. Do I use them? Sometimes. Initially I write what sounds good to me and what sets my emotions in gear. This is followed with a real rough demo using one of the canned programs such as Band in a Box. If I find I really like the song then and only then does the real benefit of theory come into play. I am able not only to write the music for my own instrument (piano and violin) but I am able to write and arrange the music in my song for other instruments as well.

Are there disadvantages to learning theory? It depends. If the only knowledge you have is theory and you can't pick out a tune on your instrument of choice other than what is written on the page and can't play what you hear, then it is a disadvantage to you. This is often the case when one studies classical form such as Classical Piano. (I've been there). I found that I could play what was written, but could not just sit at the piano and play anything I heard. I quickly corrected this by doing exactly that, sitting and just playing. Until I could play what was in my head, what I heard and what was written.

My take is, enjoy making your music in whatever fashion it pleases you. There really is no right or wrong answer to this question. Just lots of music to be made and enjoyed with or without an overdose of theory. Your audience will let you know if it is working or not.

Coquette

Thank you Coquette. your reply made me really think about music theory in a different way.

((I've been playing drums(like neil), guitar and piano for 20 years, and wrote 100 unique songs - self taught))
"if you don't know anything about music"

- Music isn't something you teach; it's something you express or feel. It either sounds good to someone or it doesn't. A book can't write a song for you.

"language"

- Even with a writen language - people don't learn how to read from books.

music is repeatable if you memorize it