I'm a great believer in the study of music theory.
I've run into a lot of people on the internet who say they think the study of theory is pure rubbish. They play by ear. They want to do their own music their own way. And many more reasons.

What's your opinion on the life-long pursuit of Music Theory?

Hey Seepage, great question! It seems like most rockers are into a more primitive bag, and think that if they actually know how to play their instrument, they will lose something. It pains me when I listen to someone like Peter Buck of REM who has been playing for over twenty years professionally and hasn't grown at all as a musician in all that time. I mean, what else has he got to do? Throw food trays at stewardess's, I guess! You would think that becoming good on the axe would interest someone like that, wouldn't you? Then there are bands like the Wallflowers and Counting Crows who are nothing but studio concoctions and can't play live at all. They are an embarassment and a disgrace, in my opinion!

Then there are guys that can actually play, like the Allman Bro's, Grateful Dead, Frank Zappa, King Crimson, Eric Clapton, Eddie Van Halen, Joe Satriani, Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, Randy Rhodes, etc. Those are the people I like to listen to. I don't understand the primtive bag at all.

When I played (which was some time ago) I was constantly learning and progressing and trying to better myself as a musician. If I was still paying professionally I would be studying Jazz harmony theory like a mad dog. I dabble a little these days, but don't really have the time to devote to serious study anymore. I wish more people thought like you, and would consider music a lifelong journey and continue educating themselves. It seems like in the past, some did. But very few do anymore. It's like the Ramones won, or something, you know what I mean?

Keep the faith!

I have been playing guitar for close to 25 years and originally started off with this teacher that taught me how to read music. As time went on, I realized that I had a good ear and was always able to figure out music faster by "listening to it". I strongly recommend learning theory because every venue you take to approach your instrument will ultimately make you a better player. The real problem is that there is not really any music written for rhythm parts to steely dan or Steve miller tunes, or any other for that matter. My point is that I think it is important to learn both ear and theory training. In closing, Flamenco style guitar in Spain is a style that is not written down. You have to learn it from another Flamenco player. I realize that this music has been transcribed, but lets face it...if most people waited until they could read music that well, it would take me another 20 years to be able to play it. Learning by ear is as much of an asset as knowing theory. Joe

i am a little of both. when it comes to learning a famous song, i tend to learn it by ear because i have never been able to find charts that are totally accurate. Other times, i will use the charts or notation to get me started and then learn from there.

I've had very little theory, but it helped me to learn what notes to go to and basic triads, but even that is just what sounds good. :rolleyes:
I have been playing bass for only 7 years. But when I took theory in high school, it really only frustrated me. We would create musical projects on a notation program called encore (like cakewalk) which I enjoyed and would get A's on every time. But the whole "book" stuff, I just couldn't get.
I couldn't learn keys and modes, and the whole idea of modes, just seems rediculous to me. There are 12 notes, they have all been played in every possible combination. Why does it matter what catagory it falls into? Big deal if your start on the 4th note in the scale of A and only actually use three of the notes!
Its just like giving genres to music, its not really nessecary, but some people need it. To me theory just seemed like some people wanted to catagorize every possible different way to play, so they did. I think they had WAY too much time on thier hands personaly.
But a true artist never stops progressing in one way or another. But its not always better to know more, it might take the fun out of it. then what do you have?

Jerm, I have to wholeheartedly disagree! Your take on theory is dead wrong. If you ever want to actually know what you are doing (which is the point, isn't it?) you need to know theory. And if you ever want to be able to add any harmonic interest to your playing, you need to understand which intervals to begin and end a line on. It depends on the chord sequence what scales you use, and the sound of those scales changes significantly when you play them against different chords. Try playing a diminished scale against a major chord, then try it against an altered dominant chord, and you will immediately know what I mean! Your last remark about knowing too much taking the fun out of music is about to make my head explode! YOU CAN NEVER KNOW TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!! It will make it MORE fun, not less! Pull your head out of the sand and become a real musician, for crissakes!!!!!

First off.....did your head explode???

""If you ever want to actually know what you are doing (which is the point, isn't it?) you need to know theory.""

I know what I am doing. I know where my hands are, I know what they are doing, I know what it is supposed to sound like and what I want it to sound like.

So why do I NEED to know if its a major,minor,dim,aug,7th,9th,13th,ect chord or if I am in a mode or not?
Sure its usefull (I guess) to spout off the name of the key/mode your in or what kind of chord your doing. It just reminds me of meaningless trivia for some reason...
A mode is starting somewhere else in a scale besides the first note. (but you know that)It is all relitive, Its just a name for something, thats all.

""you need to understand which intervals to begin and end a line on""

in response:

""I've had very little theory, but it helped me to learn what notes to go to""

Intervals are VERY usefull, but if you have a good ear, it isn't needed.
I LOVED my theory class. But once we got into the second year, like secondal and 12 tonal scales, and made up scales. I was just like this stuff is gotten out of control. What is the point? It is all relitive, but yet it really isn't. Are still you with me??

Theory is catagorizing groups of notes. It is a neat thing, but so is cheeze whiz.

Theory did help me and I won't deny that. But I will say that I think it is over rated and people use it to belittle others.

:Reinserting head into sand:

i totally agree with jerm, theory is a great thing but a lot of people use it to just make themselves sound better than you. a friend of mine has had music theory crammed down his throat for 14 years and now all the music he makes he tries to make sound like dream theater or joe satriani and it doesnt sound even close, the idea of music is expression and i think the musician has every right to express it however he/she wants, whether that involves theory or not.

Jostrosky......duuuuuuuuuuuuuuude!!!!!! This is ignorance on an unimaginable level! Every time you play theory is involved, although I'm pretty sure it's at a very low level when YOU play. Can you even play an instrument? Or do you think guitars, bass, keyboards and drums are for some sort of sporting event? Just because your buddy can't play, even though he is aquainted with theory, doesn't mean that there is any problem with THEORY, or do you just not get it? Music theory isn't some esoteric mumbo jumbo, it's the relationship between chords, their arpeggios, (Oop's, big word!), modes, and scales. You are absolutely right about one thing, "J" old boy, music is about expressing yourself. Just how do you intend to do that if you don't know anything about music, huh? Music is a language and if you can't speak, you can't express yourself, can you? The whole point is in learning the vocabulary so that you can express any idea you have. How can you write if you don't know how to spell? How can you communicate without being able to write, or speak? YOU CAN'T!!! The point of learning theory is so that any musical idea that comes to mind can be expressed, and expressed with style and flair and, most importantly, a sense of the personality of the person who is playing it. Being willfully ignorant just means that you are limited in what you can and cannot say! Knowledge is power, dude! Guys like you and Jerm really get under my skin........can you tell? And, yes Jerm, my head did explode. I had to put it back together with glue and duct tape! Let me put it this way, the sorriest thing in the world is a "musician" with a great idea, but utterly without the ability to express it. You can't build a house without tools, right? And the kind of tools you have, or don't have, will necessarily dictate what kind of a house you can build! Don't you wan't to be able to build a great house, or do you want to live in a tent? I would like to see both you and Jerm be able to write and play anything that comes into your mind, that's all. If that's the goal, as you say it is Jostrosky, then learn all you can about your instrument and how music works. We'll all be happier then!!


:p :rolleyes:

THANK YOU JOE MY MAN! You nailed it right on the head. It is proven that heart and soul make up GOOD music and theory may or may not even be involved!

And ONE SUN, I am in no way saying that theory and the knowledge it can provide is a waste of time and it can't make music more challenging or fulfilling. It can! But my point of using it to belittle people rang true 2 sentences into your post! Belittling other musicians for their knowledge (or lack ther of) of music theory. It is being used for nothing more than a boost to an ego. Most of what you wrote revolved around that! Resorting to mindless insults over this. COME ON! Cut downs toward someone because they haven't/don't/won't/can't use theory is completely uncalled for.

All I am saying is it isn't for everybody. Using some "arpeggio" (which isn't a big word you ass) to a theory pro is no more than a brain fart. But to the untrained, it could be the coolest thing they have EVER heard. So why ruin it with a title. So what if some one calls it the (song name here) chord instead of the official name.

I hear things. I play them. They come out like I hear. Sometimes better! Where is the theory? Buried deep within the music itself. If somebody wants to take the time to figure out what mode I am using on a chord progression I think sounds "interesting", go right ahead. Why not! But why waste your time with breaking it all down and sorting it. In the end you will have learned everything BUT the song!

Soul comes from within. Plain and simple. Theory can't give you Soul (sorry ONE SUN). Only the tools to break it down into little categories so you can figure it ALL out and have in your neat little piles. Some need piles. Some work better in a mess.

Music is communication. It is portraying a mood and conveying a message. Some do it well. Some not so well. Some with soul. And even those without. Some only play in one key while some can hardly even stay in 1 !!

Musicianship should not be based on the knowledge of music theory, but on the ability to listen and listen well. To hear what "should" be played and doing just that.

Jerm
Http://www.mp3.com/etherweare
Jermonbass@mail.com

Jerm- You have taken me to task for belittling Jostrosky, and rightly so. I apologize for my sarcasm. However, don't lose sight of my mesage. You say to "Joe" that theory may or may not even be involved. Any time you play theory is involved, just because you are not AWARE of that doesn't mean it's not involved. Did you read the last part of my post? I am genuinely concerned for both of you. I don't think that either of you will ever be able to play anything you are capable of playing. You might hit on some of your ideas by sheer random luck, but how do you expect to be able to play ANYTHING you hear at ANYTIME if you don't know what you are doing? If you always know what you are doing, it's consistent and repeatable. If not, you are only lucky to be able to do it once, and may never be able to do it again. I am only suggesting that you have all the tools at your disposal to be able to execute any idea you can think of, whenever you think of it. Is that such a horrible thing to suggest? The greatest composers, as well as the greatest improvisors, can execute any idea that comes to them, and can do it flawlessly. They can do it because they know how to. Ignorance is never defensible, why are you defending it now? I agree with you, music is about communication. How can you communicate eloquently and effectively without a thorough knowledge of the language? How can you create resonance on a deep and profound level without being able to speak coherently? Why wouldn't you want to know as much as you can about making music? I ask you to please address these
questions, as I really do have both of your best interests at heart. I am not trying to be arrogant here, and I apologize for the tone of my last posts. Can either of you explain to me why you think that ignorance is good?

First and foremost, from a mucisian whos principal job is to play music... I think that Onesun... you are an asshole. you have no right to say that to other people because you know music theory you think you are the all mighty god of music, you don't have to know any music theory to know how to play. I mean, being in the music Industry, the only bands anymore that really bother to learn music theory are crap bands that are too technical and don't experiment. you saying that you have to understand the language to communicate is B/S ok if you like examples so much, here is one to prove my point. when you got your license, did you go out to buy every book on the market to understand how a car works? no you didnt. you learned the basics, and the rest you taught yourself. There is really only so much you can learn about playing music and then the rest is useless. if everyone learned music theory, music would become repetative and boring! Once you learn music theory, you think about chords that typically can go together, and don't experiment. music is not made to be written, its made to be heard and the only thing anyone has to understand about music is how to hear it, as far as I'm concerned, to answer the original question, that music theory is good to know, but to say it is absolutley necessary, is bull shit. learn the basics, and if you can't improve on your own then don't play an instrument.

I can see both points and I think you are all talking about the same thing. How many times have you traveled to another country and didn't know the language? Did you sit in your hotel room and not go out? no...you learned a few words and phrases and probably had a great vacation. sure you didn't know what everything was but you can feel it the same way you can feel the music. The next time you go to that country, you may know a few more words...and each time it gets better and you understand more but each time it works...if you studied that language for 10 years and went, you'd have a great time too. It's just that some things work better for some people. No one is right here but everyone is right here too. I personally like the feel better then the technique though.

just my 2 cents

"Actual Musician".........(if that's your real name)........ I really don't mean to be disrepectful, but your entire post is one of the most ignorant diatribes I have ever read in my entire life. First off, I never said I was the almighty god of music. I am just expressing my opinion, and my opinion is that in order to play ANYTHING you can think of, at ANYTIME, the more you know, the better. How is this position wrong? It can't be wrong, it's in fact, UNASSAILABLE!!!! There is no way to support any argument to the contrary, except with ignorance and laziness. The more you know about ANYTHING, the better you'll be at it if it is a skill that involves knowledge. The fact of the matter is, you are a lazy musician, not an actual one. Because an actual one would never argue for ignorance and laziness as an approach to anything. You are right, I'm sure, about bands not learning music theory anymore. Most bands nowadays SUCK! They can't play their instruments and it sounds like it. The music most bands make sounds like they don't know much about music. The shitty state of music today accurately reflects the fact that lots of bands know nothing about music. As far as your assertion that knowing music theory means you won't experiment at all, that is just a convenient and absurd way to rationalize your ignorant and lazy approach to music. I am trying here to promote an intelligent approach to music, that is all. If that makes me an asshole, then so be it!

ONE SUN,
1. what makes you an asshole is the approach, not your cause.
2.you dont know me and are underestimating my talent.
Im not bragging here, just telling it as I see it. I CAN play anything I hear! And the only times I MIGHT use ANY theory is when deciding what note to start the next phrase / part / chorus / bridge on.
But as I have stated before, all of that can be unnesesary to those with a good ear (which I have been blessed with) Book knowledge will never replace god given talent!
You can study all the different types of art and the different styles and mediums, but it wont mean that you can draw!
So NO, I don't NEED theory to play WHATEVER. WHENEVER!
BUT! Theory is good and CAN be usefull when aplied in moderation. I would recomend knowledge to anyone, but how you use it is up to you! A piece could sound horrible and use secondal and 3rds and all that to seem technical. But it sounds like my kid brother bangin on the piano! Now I could play an entire song using only 2 base notes, but build a song with 10 parts in a 3 minute song and it still not be an overload of changes!
AND I DO THAT!
It is artistic CREATIVITY.
Theory helped, true. But i personally think it didnt do anything for me that wouldnt have happened naturally somewhere down the line.
Theory in and of itself can easily take away the spiritual fullfillment music can give.
Its like the scientist. Breaking down the structure of something and showing how "smart" they are, but what does it get you. Unimpressed with the world and never satisfied. So why not just take things at face value as what they are instead of what it is made up of and why it is made that way.
Any way, our govnt has started a war and is bombing a nation for its self rightous benifit. So lets move on.

OneSun, I'm sorry if you got the wrong message from what i posted, which leads me to believe more and more how stupid you really are. I didn't want to get across that Music Theory is useless... I'm sure that it can be good... my message was that its not as important as you make it sound. Also i would like to point out that attacking my level of play will take you nowhere, you never even heard my band play. I agree with one thing you said though, that mainstream music sucks these days, but I never once said I was a mainstream musician. You have to grow up and admit that maybe you don't need to know Music Theory to play an instrument. Also not learning music theory doesn't mean your lazy, it just means you learn better different ways. when i write or play music, with other people it all comes down to if it sounds good or not. If it is pleasing you work with it to make it sound amazing. When i finish my bands website, then i will have some of our songs on there for you to listen to and once you hear how we sound then you have permission to tear us up as badly as you want, but untill then, shut your mouth about what you don't know.

Just a few words on the study of music theory. I went back to school and completed my degree in music last year. This was one of my goals in life. This included endless study of music theory, sight singing, piano pedology and the like.

As an aspiring songwriter, I just felt I needed the additional tools. Do I use them? Sometimes. Initially I write what sounds good to me and what sets my emotions in gear. This is followed with a real rough demo using one of the canned programs such as Band in a Box. If I find I really like the song then and only then does the real benefit of theory come into play. I am able not only to write the music for my own instrument (piano and violin) but I am able to write and arrange the music in my song for other instruments as well.

Are there disadvantages to learning theory? It depends. If the only knowledge you have is theory and you can't pick out a tune on your instrument of choice other than what is written on the page and can't play what you hear, then it is a disadvantage to you. This is often the case when one studies classical form such as Classical Piano. (I've been there). I found that I could play what was written, but could not just sit at the piano and play anything I heard. I quickly corrected this by doing exactly that, sitting and just playing. Until I could play what was in my head, what I heard and what was written.

My take is, enjoy making your music in whatever fashion it pleases you. There really is no right or wrong answer to this question. Just lots of music to be made and enjoyed with or without an overdose of theory. Your audience will let you know if it is working or not.

Coquette

Thank you Coquette. your reply made me really think about music theory in a different way.

((I've been playing drums(like neil), guitar and piano for 20 years, and wrote 100 unique songs - self taught))
"if you don't know anything about music"

- Music isn't something you teach; it's something you express or feel. It either sounds good to someone or it doesn't. A book can't write a song for you.

"language"

- Even with a writen language - people don't learn how to read from books.

music is repeatable if you memorize it

"repetative and boring! "

Probably. But a lot is anyway.

On the other hand:
RUSH (the band) were mostly self taught. That theory doesn't exist. It's unique.

Sun, there's a case for theory. But there's a case for other methods too.

"people don't learn how to read from books.
"
Haaaaah. What I MEANT was "people don't learn how to SPEAK from books.

Skill is the whole thing about playing music. Some people are very skilled because of their knowledge, others "stumble" on new ways to play music. Everything can be linked to theory just like Math to Algebra and Calculus. Donald Trump isn't a mathematician, but he counts money very well! Intellignece about music isn't always a measure of ability. I know major, minor scales and a few sus's, 3rds, 5ths and 7th's. Yet I can't play the guitar for crap. I'm also not that good of a live musician with the keyboard. Personally I use the keyboard for composing and expressing my work. If I didn't at least know something about music, I wouldn't be able to tell a bass or guitar player how to play or let the drummer know what rhythm to play. I'm new at the "band" thing, but I've sat in several times with bands as a "replacement" singer. I've also been around enough musicians to know that trying to explain what I would like to be played in a certain section of music just doesn't suffice to say, "Can you play do, do, do, do, do, da, dut, da, da!" They kind of look at me and ask me what key is that! I think the more knowledge you have about anything you're interested in or work at can be nothing beneficial. My instrument is my voice, yet I can't read as I sing. Yeah, I know some theory, but I leave the playing of instruments to "real" musicians! I've known classically trained musicians with degrees from Berklee, and I've played with hicks in the backwoods that grew up on Skynyrd and 38 Special and played strictly by ear. Dude, it's music, it's meant to be different and approached in different ways. If we strictly relied on theory, then we'd all have the 8th notes, snares and bass drums nice and pretty on a piece of paper. On the other hand when we need to find that elusive chord for that bridge in the middle of our latest musical masterpiece, it's good to know some theory...
The Generik No Nayme Banned,
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